Hey here's something that came to our attention recently. Looking back over last season's wrapup, we noticed that DojoMojo was placed 5th (i.e. last) for Spirit, so we figured it might be time to see if anyone out there in the BPL community wants to help shed some light on what is supposed to be the most valued, and yet is also the most mysterious aspect of Ultimate - Spirit of the Game.
Woohoo - time for some controversy (hopefully)!
What we're looking for here is some comments from our BPL peers, especially those people who actually assigned the spirit scores, letting us know what it was that made the Dojo seem the worst-spirited team in the league last season. To make sure this is useful, we've also turned OFF anonymous commenting. Yes, this might make some more reluctant to come forward, but really we're just tired of getting the usual snide comments from people who lack the cahones to put their own name next to their words (ps we love the comments from people who do let us all know who they are, even when they're bagging us). And anyway, everyone knows who is writing this blog, so fair's fair.
Now, Spirit of the Game comes in at rule #1 in the WFDF Rules of Ultimate, and it's got quite a detailed description. That's exactly how it should be in a self-refereed sport where the constant co-operation of opponents is required in a fast-paced, physically and mentally demanding environment. The problem with this, however, is that there is absolutely no feedback mechanism (at least in the BPL) for teams and players other than a simple, dumb numeric ranking that you don't see until the very end of the season. And then we only see rankings rather than even just a basic points average. What can be learned from that?
What we would very much like to see is a change in policy, at least in the BPL, where Spirit scores are openly reported each week, just like the game scores. But this is just for starters. We'd also like the actual content of Spirit scoring to be much more detailed and defined, probably in a tick-a-box format to keep it quick - the lights always go out so soon after the game!
So we're seeking comments from anyone that's man (or woman) enough to put their name to their opinion regarding:
1. Why do you think the Dojo scored lowest for Spirit last season?
2. What do you think about our proposal for regular, transparent & detailed Spirit reporting?
Two hands for beginners when throwing
5 years ago
I would have more faith in the BPL Spirit Scoring system if it was clearly the case that teams discussed it as a group after a game. Near as I can tell, my team doesn't discuss it, and I suspect for most other teams it is the same.
ReplyDeleteA system where a Captain tries to make a spirit judgement on their own or sometimes in consultation with a couple of team-mates is generally pointless.
The spirit score process is not about 'winning points and the spirit trophy' (although that is a nice thing to have and if you're collecting points you may as well tally them up).
The spirit score process is to require players to reflect upon the game they've just played, and ideally discuss it with their team-mates. Could it have been better? Worse? What particular issues came up or didn't? How did it compare to other games we've played (this last one is why we try to distill it down to a number).
This tends to be why I'm against 'checkboxing', which doesn't promote free discussion. 5+2-4+3-1=5/10 doesn't teach a lot.
While its difficult with players needing to leave etc, perhaps during the Spirit Circle a Captain can specifically remind his team-mates to have a think about the spirit of the game just played, and invite them to contribute to his determination of the spirit score.
Or, Sensei, if you want to demonstrate some non-secret Spirit scoring and lead on this matter (as you already have with your post and good work on that), then in the Spirit Circle speech after the game a Captain could say "At the moment I'm thinking of giving our opponents 8 out of 10, but I'm eager to talk to my team-mates and see if they think that's about right." The score written down would change based on any comments, of course. How one individual experienced and rated a game may be quite different from other members of the team.
Many of course would note that the Spirit Circle is actually the defacto feedback mechanism. Some might say it's a brave Captain who calls out an opposing team that's poorly spirited, but its the same bravery that makes you can Ultimate player in the first place - a willingness to make calls rather than rely on some guy with a whistle.
Even if you're not willing to announce a score, I encourage Captains to give a clear and frank idea of the spirit of the game they just played, and for players to think about their comments seriously.
If people don't want to do that, I'd prefer to go back to doing Cheers. At least Cheers reminded people not to take it seriously, although it is hard to rhyme something with Dojo or Cobras (Buggers and Heroes are a lot easier).
Related suggestion here: http://rjhberg-disc.blogspot.com/2008/09/spirit-captain.html
ReplyDeleteEspecially the following: "After the game they determine the Spirit Score for the opposition, discuss the level of spirit in the game with the opposing teams Spirit Captain and then share Spirit Scores with them"
I think there's considerable value in discussing the Spirit with the opposing captain after the game, and being transparent about the score to be given.
As for question 1, I'm going to trust that you have already made the mental separation between comments and the commenter... i.e. if you're gonna ask for feedback, you're taking the points on board objectively and not getting pissed off at the person who says them...
Honest and straight out? The Dojo whinge a lot, and have some players who have loud mouths at the best of times.
In Dojo games, it's common to be heckled for making a call, and that sometimes (e.g. last Thu night) continues well past the incident.
While you're generally far from angry or aggressive, which are commonly associated with bad Spirit, sarcasm, mockery and other forms of disrespect are equally poor.
That's my 2c.
Hey how about that? You ask for honest and straight out opinions and that's what you get! Thanks John and Jdr. Plenty of things in both your comments to take up in greater detail, and hopefully there'll be more to come yet.
ReplyDeleteI have a fairly rudimentary system for assigning spirit. I'm not actually responsible most of the time for giving spirit socres in BPL for the last couple of years but when I have - it generally gets discussed it with whoever's still sitting around afterward when I find the folder that needs to be filled in.
ReplyDeleteBut onto my system - you start at 8 - if there were instances of "poor spirit" - repeated calls of dubious nature, ongoing discussion of calls in an aggreived, angry, righteous nature, ongoing heckles from on or off the field, physically intimidatory play, then you lose a couple of points.
An opposition has to work pretty hard to get down below the 6 mark. Think in the 10 years or so I've been playing I've given 5 or below about 3 times. All those instances involved blatant acts of cheating by more than one member of the team in question. Don't think its ever been given by me in BPL
A game played in a way that there are a lot of calls doesn't neccessarily then mean a poor spirit score. If calls are made and resolved then you stay at 8 or even move up to 9 if its been a competitive game played with mutual respect.
A good clean game without calls played with a sense of respect gets a 9
10 doesn't come out very often and usually invovles bringing along beer to share with your opposition.
And now trying not to pull any punches - why did the Dojo finish last?
Think there's a number of Dojo players very happy to let people know and continue to let people know about percieved wrongs on the field. Also a couple who know how to and almost relish at times getting under the skin of certain other players within the brisbane community.
Thats it from me for now..
aL
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI think enough has been said about how to score spirit and that it involves discussion with team mates, rather than just 1 person pulling a figure out of their arse.
ReplyDeleteI would also have to agree with Al and Jmac in their sentiments that some of the Dojo seem to take pride in niggling the opposition. They aren't the only ones in the competition, but that is probably the reason for the placing of Dojo in last seasons spirit scores. Do you have access to previous seasons to see if it was a one off or if is is a continuing trend? Just a thought.
And my removed comment.. removed because I managed to use system three times in a sentence and a half.
ReplyDeleteSomething that bothers me with spirit scores is the way that the team that plays the worst level of ultimate seems to win spirit as a kind of consolation prize. Something that when I'm awarding points I try and avoid. Generally only award above 8 in games that are competitive and played in a way that gets you the bonus points to move above the 8 standard.
Not really related to the above but thought I'd add it back in anyway.
This just in from one Mr Mat Ryan (unable to post his own comment for some work internet access reason, but we have his permission to quote him here):
ReplyDeleteSweet.
Finally .... a spirit discussion that doesn't involve someone else blubbing about me... :)
I love these discussions about Spirit.
They never fail to amuse.
There's a rule of thumb that I think applies very well to most Spirit discussions:
The people who talk the most about it generally understand it the least.
They get up on their pedestal and start pontificating like they have some sort of moral mandate.
Ha ha.
So ... having said that... here's what I reckon....
Frisbee = Sport.
Competitive Frisbee = Competitive Sport.
Calls happen in competitive games.
They shouldn't contribute to some sort of penalty or reward system.
It's what happens around the calls that people measure in terms of spirit.
Exercise: Analyse a spirit 'incident':
It generally isn't soft/poor calls that gives the perception of bad spirit, although they are often the start of it.
It's what happens after the call, combined with comments from the sideline and the involvement of non-involved players (people entering the discussion from 50m away).
This is escalation. This might also include retaliation calls.
The solution:
Captains should be empowered, in fact OBLIGED by the rules, to step in and handle spirit incidents before they escalate.
How?
Exercise a couple of simple rules.
* Ensure your team mates know the rules.
* Restrict ALL call discussions to ONLY the directly involved players.
* Tell team mates to shut up when heckling crosses the line from humorous to offensive (something the Dojo might want to think about...)
* Sub an obnoxious team mate or repeat offender off, to cool down before getting back on the field.
* Tell a really obnoxious team mate to go home.
* Call a spirit timeout and have a quick chat with the opposing Captain and stomp on any emergent incidents before they turn ugly.
If the BPL had Captains who could do this, incidents could be terminated before turning bloody. If you just implemented the first three of these rules, imagine how many incidents would be resolved before spreading badevilnastyspirit through a team?
But the BPL Captains don't do this. They just sit back and watch the show like everyone else, awkwardly twiddling their thumbs and wondering what they are supposed to do about it.
(In the worst cases the Captains themsleves are part of the problem, so you need to choose your Captains carefully. They need to be respected.)
But the BPL has never really put any emphasis on Captains to fix this.
It has never empowered the Captains to act, and it has never enshrined those responsibilities in the competition rules nor in the roles and responsibilities sections of the Event Description doc that defines the league.
It has not established a culture where Captains are expected to respond in a particular way, and it doesn't really respect Captains if they attempt to.
So I think the BPL itself has some work to do in this area.
(To be fair, not just BPL. Qld generally doesn't have a very strong culture of empowering Captains to be custodians of spirit).
NSW is much better at this than we are.
Also ... the same Captains should also be given the authority to discuss spirit issues with the opposing team Captain after the game and assign a spirit score .... if you must.
The Captains can then go away and deal with the fallout with their own team in their own time.
The idea that the teams have to gather round in a circle and hold hands, sing a few songs and talk about their feelings does not = competitve sport.
It's not necessary.
It's weird.
If that's what you want, maybe colouring-in is more your game?
The BPL competition rules and framework that Mat wrote, deals with the responsibility of players and captains. They were emailed to BPL players over a year ago (23/01/2009). The competition rules need to be updated but nothing in there has been superseded.
ReplyDeleteThe competition framework was issued as a draft at the time, as it was beleived that we needed QUDA sign off on it. It was at this point (well before Piers spat the dummy) that QUDA realised it didn't have any governance over BPL despite receiving money from BPL and helping BPL with fields! As such they have never been approved. I'm not sure how the weekends AGM will change this.
Getting back to the original questions; I agree with all of the other comments about this post of Dojo's ability to rub people up the wrong way, but also the fact that none of their team mates will say anything to them.
I don't have the score with me but I think Dojo on average were about 1.5 points below UQ. I don't have any issues with posting spirit scores. Although don't like the tick box, add up your score system, as you always seem to end up giving the same score.
Love to see people stick their neck out. Nice post Stephen.
ReplyDelete1. Why were Dojo last?
Dont know. I generally enjoy playing against you guys. Agree that there are a few Dojo who like to let you know about it when they get one up on you. But even if they have big mouths, its nothing compared to players on other teams. After all, a BPL final was won a couple of years ago through blatant cheating.
Also - I think a lot of poorly spirited teams dont care about spirit. The fact that youre seeking feedback on how to improve is good spirit in itself... as long as you act on it.
2. As for how to improve the spirit system, I disagree with a few comments on the spirit circle. In my experience, the spirit circle after poorly spirited games is full of fake apologies, weak excuses, and general glossing over/laughing off of incidents that were, in reality, completely unacceptable.
I like the -2 to +2 scale that Nat used for something recently (at UQ league maybe?) Its close to the binary grading of spirit that matzuka proposed some time ago ("spirited" or "not spirited"), while still allowing enough resolution to differentiate teams. The idea of starting at the random number '8' and then going above or below is pretty much equivalent to the simplified version of starting with zero (OK spirit) and going up (good spirit=1; outstanding spirit=2), or down (bad spirit= -1; cheating= -2).
This system is also sending a message to teams that average a negative number that they need to lift their game... much more effectively than giving someone an average of 6/10, which doesnt look bad at all.
Righto, well we're certainly getting a few strong messages here, and most of them seem quite reasonable. Some are also highly amusing!
ReplyDeleteRegarding the Dojo spirit issue in particular, it's no secret that there are many kenshi who aren't the least bit afraid to mouth off at a perceived injustice on the field (or even off the field, hence our currently icy relationship with our LD).
However, we also acknowledge that at times this can go overboard and/or carry on for too long, and we'll do everything we can to bring that up to an exemplary standard.
In regard to the notion of Spirit in general and as it applies to the BPL, there are lots of things above from various people that really need to be followed through. Specifically:
1. Even though SOG is defined in the Rules of Ultimate, there is actually no objective way that this information is translated into the Sprit scores that each captain assigns after each game.
2. There is a trophy given for Most Spirited team, but nobody really knows what that means.
3. There is a disturbing tendency for the Spirit trophy to be awarded to the lowest-placed team. Is this really what is intended by the idea of Spirited play?
4. There is actually no real benefit to any team in displaying good Spirit, and no real penalty for displaying poor Spirit.
5. There is no official empowerment or obligation for captains to take Spirit seriously, and no provision either in the BPL rules or the WFDF rules (Rule 1.6 of the WFDF rules simply says that Spirit violations are to be "avoided by all participants") for dealing with Spirit violations as they happen on-field.
Seems to me that it's high time this stuff was all written into the BPL rules. If there's a trophy for Spirit then there really has to be a measurable way for the winner to be determined. It seems like Julz/Nat/Brett's system on 0+-2 is basically a more elegant version of aL's "default 8/10" system, with the added benefit that poor Spirit earns a minus score, rather than something slightly above a "pass mark" of 6/10...
So, the question (and it's probably a question for detailed discussion away from this blog) is HOW many points above and below 0 is it possible to score and WHAT behaviours result in a plus or minus score.
Oh, and also there needs to be some direct relationship established between Spirited play and Competitive play. WFDF Rule 1.4 is probably the crux of the idea of Spirit, in that it encourages competitive play but not at the cost of mutual respect. If a team can only manage one or the other then that's not great (talking in a competitive BPL context here), but if a team can do BOTH then that is really the sort of Spirit we should be awarding trophies to, no?
Dare I suggest that, say we're using the 0+-2 system, and that the Spirit score is arrived at via a clearly described and common-to-all list of criteria, that 0.5 league ladder points are added/subtracted per Spirit point awarded??? Oooh now Spirit is starting to mean something!
Everyone has made valid points, but I would just like Julz to clarify his point that "After all, a BPL final was won a couple of years ago through blatant cheating." I know it's off topic, but I would be interested to hear it.
ReplyDeleteA few stats for everyone.
ReplyDeleteAverage spirit scores that teams received last season:
1. Passion - 8.31
2. Lovers - 8.31
3. Buggers - 7.81
4. Cobras - 7.29
5. Dojo - 7.06
So Dojo aren't as far behind as I thought they were. The next thing to check is that Dojo aren't just giving out much higher scores than everyone else, and so crippling themselves. So..
Average spirit scores given by each team:
1. Pasion - 8.04
2. Lovers - 7.88
2. Buggers - 7.88
2. Dojo - 7.88
5. Cobras - 7.13
So Dojo didn't shoot themselves in the foot by giving everyone else high scores. In fact everyone ends up giving the same score over the course of BPL but just not to Dojo.
The last point that I wanted to check was how does Dojo's spirit score vary to that given by the other team. So...
Difference between score given and score received for each game over the whole season:
1. Dojo - +6.5
2. Passion - +0.3
3. Buggers - -1.5
4. Lovers - -2
5. Cobras - -3.3
In a lot of the non Dojo games, teams game each other the same spirit score, so they felt that each other contributed equally to the level of spirit whether it was high or low. On the other end of the scale, Dojo repeatedly gave a higher spirit score than their oposition. I think the reasons why have already been listed.
Stu
Thanks for the stats review, Stu.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with them though is that they're only averages (I assume the last set are sum totals?), and this may be misleading by giving the perception that there has been a season-long trend when in actual fact there may have been just one or two extreme instances that pulled the whole average down.
Without seeing the full list of results we can't draw any meaningful conclusions, and can't address any problems that may have occurred in particular games.
The other thing to consider with these stats is the very real possibility that each captain has a different perception of how to score the Spirit displayed by his opponents on any given night. For instance - maybe I'm just overly generous and Wetnose is a spirit scrooge??? Not saying this is actually the case, of course, but it's very possible that each of us have a different idea of how to assign Spirit scores.
Which gets us back to the need for a properly defined system...